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Post by maasart on Dec 11, 2023 22:08:57 GMT
Yeah,13 points in the first 14 games and now 2 points in the last 13. I assume his numbers should be somewhere in the middle. He'll likely end the season with 40-50 points and be a good quality defensive centre. Nothing to sneeze at but more of a quality 3rd liner than a 2nd. Just under $5m per still seems high but he's not a bum. I am not sure if i'd prefer him over Dvorak (age differences aside) but I dont love that we had to give up more to get Dvo thank we did to lose JK. That one still stings.
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Post by ChiLla on Dec 13, 2023 14:08:55 GMT
Yeah,13 points in the first 14 games and now 2 points in the last 13. I assume his numbers should be somewhere in the middle. He'll likely end the season with 40-50 points and be a good quality defensive centre. Nothing to sneeze at but more of a quality 3rd liner than a 2nd. Just under $5m per still seems high but he's not a bum. I am not sure if i'd prefer him over Dvorak (age differences aside) but I dont love that we had to give up more to get Dvo thank we did to lose JK. That one still stings. That slump can continue for the remainder of the season and the rest of his NHL career for all I care. Pretty shitty behavior at the time of his departure and a massive lack of respect towards the organization that drafted him and paid him $10M+ including bonuses during his ELC – and I don't mean him signing the offer sheet. Petty and resentful on my part? Probably, but I don't have any tolerance for antics like that in a professional setting, so sue me
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regis
Le Gros Bill
Posts: 1,095
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Post by regis on Jan 3, 2024 18:25:54 GMT
16 pts 38 games -8 On pace for 34 points That sure fizzled, 3 points in his last 20 games
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Post by maasart on Jan 3, 2024 18:31:30 GMT
16 pts 38 games -8 On pace for 34 points That sure fizzled, 3 points in his last 20 games Yah, canes fans were gloating "$5m a year for a point per game player!!" after 14 games but... 35-40 points... not the greatest deal anymore. Its not a terrible contract but its nothing special either.
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Post by ramcharger440 on Jan 3, 2024 18:51:20 GMT
16 pts 38 games -8 On pace for 34 points That sure fizzled, 3 points in his last 20 games Yah, canes fans were gloating "$5m a year for a point per game player!!" after 14 games but... 35-40 points... not the greatest deal anymore. Its not a terrible contract but its nothing special either. Just like the player..... I like the kid but he was never the right pick at least from my perspective. We never seem to get the good drafts! lol!
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Post by maasart on Jan 3, 2024 18:56:17 GMT
Yah, canes fans were gloating "$5m a year for a point per game player!!" after 14 games but... 35-40 points... not the greatest deal anymore. Its not a terrible contract but its nothing special either. Just like the player..... I like the kid but he was never the right pick at least from my perspective. We never seem to get the good drafts! lol!The draft was weak although if you believe Timmins (Who said this that summer, before any of them had played) he wanted to draft Hughes (who leads all NHL defensmen in points right now btw) or Tkachuk. I dont believe MB would have let the team draft hughes that high but tkachuk would have been the better choice, for sure.
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Post by ramcharger440 on Jan 3, 2024 19:07:00 GMT
Just like the player..... I like the kid but he was never the right pick at least from my perspective. We never seem to get the good drafts! lol!The draft was weak although if you believe Timmins (Who said this that summer, before any of them had played) he wanted to draft Hughes (who leads all NHL defensmen in points right now btw) or Tkachuk. I dont believe MB would have let the team draft hughes that high but tkachuk would have been the better choice, for sure. Yeah I was on the Tkachuk train myself I liked KK but I really felt it was a stretch! I would have been Happy with Hughes too but KK was kind of in a tough spot here as a high pick he was going to have to produce and he is more of a 2nd or 3rd line player to me.
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Post by maasart on Jan 3, 2024 20:03:20 GMT
The draft was weak although if you believe Timmins (Who said this that summer, before any of them had played) he wanted to draft Hughes (who leads all NHL defensmen in points right now btw) or Tkachuk. I dont believe MB would have let the team draft hughes that high but tkachuk would have been the better choice, for sure. Yeah I was on the Tkachuk train myself I liked KK but I really felt it was a stretch! I would have been Happy with Hughes too but KK was kind of in a tough spot here as a high pick he was going to have to produce and he is more of a 2nd or 3rd line player to me. I liked hughes because i thought he had unworldly skill and we could pair him with Weber for protection (not that that would have worked out). Of course, you have to wonder, if we had drafted Tkachuk if we would have ruined him. He was pretty abysmal defensively early on (he's still not great) but i think our coaches would have stapled him to the bench & turned him into a 4th liner tbh. Im glad we didnt draft Zadina at least. Thats who most pundits thought we would take. Its still possible he's a (very) late bloomer but i dont think so.
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Post by ramcharger440 on Jan 3, 2024 20:13:33 GMT
Yeah I was on the Tkachuk train myself I liked KK but I really felt it was a stretch! I would have been Happy with Hughes too but KK was kind of in a tough spot here as a high pick he was going to have to produce and he is more of a 2nd or 3rd line player to me. I liked hughes because i thought he had unworldly skill and we could pair him with Weber for protection (not that that would have worked out). Of course, you have to wonder, if we had drafted Tkachuk if we would have ruined him. He was pretty abysmal defensively early on (he's still not great) but i think our coaches would have stapled him to the bench & turned him into a 4th liner tbh. Im glad we didnt draft Zadina at least. Thats who most pundits thought we would take. Its still possible he's a (very) late bloomer but i dont think so. Yep that is the draft though even with all the stats out there these days sometimes the problem is between the ears and some guys just don't quite have what it takes to reach the potential that they have. I understand when a GM makes a trade for a known player with a draft pick if they are unsure of what is available they would rather have a known entity instead of a player they think may not measure up over the long haul. In the Habs case in the past we were so poor at development almost any draft pick was going to have a tough go! I feel like we have a better development team in place now as almost everyone we have called up seems to be at least capable of NHL level hockey! before it was like throwing them to the wolves!
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Post by BigTed3 on Jan 3, 2024 20:30:59 GMT
Kotkaniemi definitely on a stinker of a low after a hot start to the season. I think he'll probably level off at about 40-45 points this season again. Drouin on the other hand has been heating up for Colorado of late, I think something like a PPG in his last 10 games...
But all in all, the bottom line remains the same: don't give young offensive talents the chance to play offensive roles, and you'll never know what they have and almost never develop them properly. We're seeing now a perfect example of Slafkovsky... did well early in the year getting to play a top 6 role with Dach, sucked big time when he was playing in the bottom 6, and now having his best moments playing on the 1st line with Suzuki and CC. As I've said, almost the same exact story with Pacioretty first breaking into the NHL, having an awful time in the bottom 6 but breaking out once he got a shot with Gomez and Gionta. JK never really had much of a shot in the top 6 here and we kind of ruined him as a player. He's done better in Carolina when there have been injuries and he got the chance to move up the line-up (late last year and earlier this year). With Carolina returning to full strength, they've largely given the prime minutes to Aho, Teravainen, Necas, and Svech, and we've seen JK's production fall as a result. He was getting an average of 15.5 minutes a night in October and November with the Svechnikov injury, and he put up 15 points in 22 games. In December, he averaged just 13 minutes a night and put up 1 point in 15 games, but he's playing lower down the line-up and after getting PP time for the first two months of the year, he effectively hasn't seen any PP time in a month. His recent production has been bad by any means, but nonetheless a large chunk of this has to do with a lack of opportunity as well.
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Post by maasart on Jan 3, 2024 20:52:31 GMT
Kotkaniemi definitely on a stinker of a low after a hot start to the season. I think he'll probably level off at about 40-45 points this season again. Drouin on the other hand has been heating up for Colorado of late, I think something like a PPG in his last 10 games... But all in all, the bottom line remains the same: don't give young offensive talents the chance to play offensive roles, and you'll never know what they have and almost never develop them properly. We're seeing now a perfect example of Slafkovsky... did well early in the year getting to play a top 6 role with Dach, sucked big time when he was playing in the bottom 6, and now having his best moments playing on the 1st line with Suzuki and CC. As I've said, almost the same exact story with Pacioretty first breaking into the NHL, having an awful time in the bottom 6 but breaking out once he got a shot with Gomez and Gionta. JK never really had much of a shot in the top 6 here and we kind of ruined him as a player. He's done better in Carolina when there have been injuries and he got the chance to move up the line-up (late last year and earlier this year). With Carolina returning to full strength, they've largely given the prime minutes to Aho, Teravainen, Necas, and Svech, and we've seen JK's production fall as a result. He was getting an average of 15.5 minutes a night in October and November with the Svechnikov injury, and he put up 15 points in 22 games. In December, he averaged just 13 minutes a night and put up 1 point in 15 games, but he's playing lower down the line-up and after getting PP time for the first two months of the year, he effectively hasn't seen any PP time in a month. His recent production has been bad by any means, but nonetheless a large chunk of this has to do with a lack of opportunity as well. Fully agree with all of this - but - i do think that there's probably more going on behind the scenes when players (like slaf) are put in lesser roles; at least with good coaches. In the only MT/Julien system you had to "earn" your ice time, which is nearly impossible if you're playing with players who dont play the same style you are adept at. The fact that Suzuki "earned" his promotion from 4th line RW to 1st line centre is pretty remarkable. In Slaf's case he looked lost at times this year on the lower lines but MSL kept saying (directly or indirectly) "We know what we're doing" and I think its quite possibly true. Early in the year Slaf got a couple of shifts & even a period with CC & Suzuki but looked a little lost there too. So i suspect MSL (and maybe Nicholas or Poulin) was working with Slaf on certain elements & once they felt he was ready, they moved him up. Could they have done that sooner? Maybe. But again, I dont have a problem with it for 10 games, 20 games, even 1/2 a year but there has to be a legitimate chance to move up. I am glad Ylonen is getting a chance in the top 6 too and I hope we'll see him have some sucess there too. The lines are starting to look (as good as they can with the injuries etc) decent based on what we've got to work with. Thats really all you can ask for.
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Post by BigTed3 on Jan 4, 2024 0:27:08 GMT
Kotkaniemi definitely on a stinker of a low after a hot start to the season. I think he'll probably level off at about 40-45 points this season again. Drouin on the other hand has been heating up for Colorado of late, I think something like a PPG in his last 10 games... But all in all, the bottom line remains the same: don't give young offensive talents the chance to play offensive roles, and you'll never know what they have and almost never develop them properly. We're seeing now a perfect example of Slafkovsky... did well early in the year getting to play a top 6 role with Dach, sucked big time when he was playing in the bottom 6, and now having his best moments playing on the 1st line with Suzuki and CC. As I've said, almost the same exact story with Pacioretty first breaking into the NHL, having an awful time in the bottom 6 but breaking out once he got a shot with Gomez and Gionta. JK never really had much of a shot in the top 6 here and we kind of ruined him as a player. He's done better in Carolina when there have been injuries and he got the chance to move up the line-up (late last year and earlier this year). With Carolina returning to full strength, they've largely given the prime minutes to Aho, Teravainen, Necas, and Svech, and we've seen JK's production fall as a result. He was getting an average of 15.5 minutes a night in October and November with the Svechnikov injury, and he put up 15 points in 22 games. In December, he averaged just 13 minutes a night and put up 1 point in 15 games, but he's playing lower down the line-up and after getting PP time for the first two months of the year, he effectively hasn't seen any PP time in a month. His recent production has been bad by any means, but nonetheless a large chunk of this has to do with a lack of opportunity as well. Fully agree with all of this - but - i do think that there's probably more going on behind the scenes when players (like slaf) are put in lesser roles; at least with good coaches. In the only MT/Julien system you had to "earn" your ice time, which is nearly impossible if you're playing with players who dont play the same style you are adept at. The fact that Suzuki "earned" his promotion from 4th line RW to 1st line centre is pretty remarkable. In Slaf's case he looked lost at times this year on the lower lines but MSL kept saying (directly or indirectly) "We know what we're doing" and I think its quite possibly true. Early in the year Slaf got a couple of shifts & even a period with CC & Suzuki but looked a little lost there too. So i suspect MSL (and maybe Nicholas or Poulin) was working with Slaf on certain elements & once they felt he was ready, they moved him up. Could they have done that sooner? Maybe. But again, I dont have a problem with it for 10 games, 20 games, even 1/2 a year but there has to be a legitimate chance to move up. I am glad Ylonen is getting a chance in the top 6 too and I hope we'll see him have some sucess there too. The lines are starting to look (as good as they can with the injuries etc) decent based on what we've got to work with. Thats really all you can ask for. I don't so much have a problem with coaches limiting younger guys minutes a bit and trying to protect them in terms of zone starts or match-ups. My major issue is writing guys off for not producing on lower lines, like saying Kotkaniemi didn't produce playing with the likes of Jordan Weal and Joel Armia, therefore he shouldn't get a try in the top 6. Or saying Slafkovsky didn't put up numbers with Jake Evans and Pezzetta or so on. The Habs under Bergevin/Therrien/Julien were terrible for that. So yes, entirely possible MSL has some sort of a plan for how to manage his younger guys, but I also think fans have earned the right to be skeptical about how the Habs manage player development. The guys who have done the best in the past 10-20 years are really the ones who have been given big opportunity... I mentioned Pacioretty getting the call-up to play with Gomez and Gionta. Subban having to come up into the playoffs as an injury replacement. Slafkovsky seizing the opportunity when he finally got to play the first line. Guhle, Harris, Xhekaj, Kovacevic, etc. last year and this year having to fill out a depleted defence corps.
Conversely, look at how we bungled Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi and Diaz and Beaulieu and Tinordi and Pateryn and Andrighetto and Darcy Tucker and Robidas and Beauchemin and Hainsey and Grabovski and so on. In all those cases, it was the same story of asking them to prove themselves without being given much opportunity and then in many cases, casting them off without really having a full picture of what they could do. Now yes, I fully understand there could be things we don't know behind the scenes with respect to attitude or drugs or so on, but Montreal has always been good at failing to give younger players a chance. Hopefully that's changing under the new regimen, but at the same time, it's easier to promote your youngsters when the team is bad and has loads of injuries, as has been the case the past two years. Let's see if this mentality persists when the the team is fighting for the playoffs and MSL has to decide if he's benching a Joshua Roy/Emil Heineman/Mesar who's played well in a limited role or a Gallagher/Dvorak/Anderson type who hasn't played well but is a veteran. We'll see.
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Post by BigTed3 on Jan 4, 2024 3:57:34 GMT
Max Pacioretty made his Capitals debut today. Good for him for fighting back after a 2nd (or 3rd if you count the Chara incident) devastating injury. Has to be a Masterton candidate for doing that, you would think. I honestly wasn't sure he would ever play again.
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Post by ramcharger440 on Jan 4, 2024 4:24:42 GMT
Max Pacioretty made his Capitals debut today. Good for him for fighting back after a 2nd (or 3rd if you count the Chara incident) devastating injury. Has to be a Masterton candidate for doing that, you would think. I honestly wasn't sure he would ever play again. Yeah happy for him at least he will have played again! gives him a chance to go out on his own terms.
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regis
Le Gros Bill
Posts: 1,095
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Post by regis on Jan 6, 2024 2:29:07 GMT
Conversely, look at how we bungled Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi and Diaz and Beaulieu and Tinordi and Pateryn and Andrighetto and Darcy Tucker and Robidas and Beauchemin and Hainsey and Grabovski and so on. In all those cases, it was the same story of asking them to prove themselves without being given much opportunity and then in many cases, casting them off without really having a full picture of what they could do. Now yes, I fully understand there could be things we don't know behind the scenes with respect to attitude or drugs or so on, but Montreal has always been good at failing to give younger players a chance. Hopefully that's changing under the new regimen, but at the same time, it's easier to promote your youngsters when the team is bad and has loads of injuries, as has been the case the past two years. Let's see if this mentality persists when the the team is fighting for the playoffs and MSL has to decide if he's benching a Joshua Roy/Emil Heineman/Mesar who's played well in a limited role or a Gallagher/Dvorak/Anderson type who hasn't played well but is a veteran. We'll see.
I am in no way offering support for the previous management team (s) and yes I agree Montreal has always been good at failing to give younger players a chance. But maybe there is another perspective . Management sees the young player at training camp, exhibition games, practises , AHL games , NHL games if they earn a chance , off ice etc they know and see more than we do . So for all these young prospects that we wished / hoped that they would have given them more of a chance , maybe management saw something in them that we didnt and decided to move on from them early For the guys you mentioned Tucker, Robidas, Beauchemon, Hainsey ( and there are probably more ) all went on to have lengthy NHL careers but I don't think we can say that any of those players turned into elite, stars yes the became serviceable nhl players . I don’t know which other players were around that the team may have kept over them . Conversely these guys had opportunities after leaving Montreal and if they were good enough then they had amply opportunity after leaving Montreal to earn a spot elsewhere but they didnt Alex G they moved on from him at the right time . After leaving Montreal he went on to play for 7 different teams and his best point total was 41 points KK he got offered a ridiculous offer sheet . Even today he hasn't burst out and hes on a really good team Diaz played for 3 NHL teams after Montreal and never earned a regular spot Beaulieu , his best years were with Montreal , After he left his Games Played and Points decreased Tinordi after Montreal he's been with 5 different NHL team Pateryn five different NHL teams after Montreal now Im not even sure where he is Andrighetto played 3 seasons with Colorado now he's in the swiss league Same as some other players ( eg Hudon , Nikita Scherbak, Poehling, to name a few ) and I m sure there are more On todays current roster I see a guy like Emil Heineman who is 22 , has played 2 NHL games , the team that drafted him traded him , the second team traded him . So he's been passed on by 2 NHL teams already . Im wondering why we feel so highly on him . Same as Lias Andersson, 25 yrs old and two NHL teams have moved on from this this guy already Sure there's a chance they become regular NHL ers and theres no harm in signing them but I read where fans hold these guys in high regard and I don't get it . I guess what Im trying to say , and probably not articulating it properly , is that sure there have been alot of players pass through that maybe we thought Montreal should have given them more of an opportunity to be successful BUT those that are gone haven't exactly become superstars and Im not sure I can name any who I would say I regret or I wish were still here Some of these guys I think management gave them a chance , maybe not in the NHL, but they just didnt have what it takes
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RCAF48
Captain Kirk
Posts: 359
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Post by RCAF48 on Jan 6, 2024 21:13:40 GMT
I agree with the above post. There is another perspective.
You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
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Post by HTL on Jan 6, 2024 21:20:29 GMT
Hawks picked up Pitlick for a 7th from the Pens.
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RCAF48
Captain Kirk
Posts: 359
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Post by RCAF48 on Jan 6, 2024 22:08:41 GMT
I liked Pitlick as 4th liner/call-up, glad he is getting another opportunity to get some more NHL time.
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Post by ramcharger440 on Jan 6, 2024 22:27:28 GMT
I liked Pitlick as 4th liner/call-up, glad he is getting another opportunity to get some more NHL time. I agree he is a good depth player.
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Post by ChiLla on Jan 15, 2024 14:18:28 GMT
Drouin with 16 points in his last 15 games? Of course he'll end up on the scoresheet tonight
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