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Post by ramcharger440 on Aug 20, 2024 1:16:58 GMT
Moving to Columbus was not great for him at all and Torts just wrecked the kid too! Laine will turn it around in MTL not a doubt in my mind he said it himself in his interview he wants to play in Canada where fans care about hockey!
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Post by claremont on Aug 20, 2024 1:17:52 GMT
This is an interesting trade. In my view, Harris was worth a 2nd rounder on his own. If you trade an established young NHL defenceman who appears to be a #4-5 guy, that's roughly the market for that type of asset. The Athletic says he's a giant bargain right now because his stats suggest a worth of about 3.4M and he's only making 1.4M. So in that regard, Columbus gets a serviceable D man on the cheap. The 2nd rounder is probably fair game for this, and the odds the 2nd rounder becomes as good as Harris or better is likely in the 10% range, so it's not good odds for us, but conversely, we knew we had to move a LHD and this helps to open up roster space. So that's that. I see the Harris for a 2nd rounder as a bit of a wash. To me, the trade then becomes Laine the player in exchange for taking on Laine's contract. I don't like that part as much, for reasons I've talked about before. According to The Athletic, Laine's expected output (if you put aside the injury and mental health issues) equates to value of about 6.6M. So we're overpaying here by over 2M for two consecutive years. That means that on his own, even if Laine plays to his expected value, we still took on about 4.2M of cap hit for nothing, and by previous NHL trade standards, that probably should have brought back a late 1st rounder or early 2nd rounder on its own. So IMO, not good value on the cap management for us. Now I think the obvious fan reaction is that we just acquired a scorer with a high upside without giving up anything that important. So I think the superficial way of looking at this trade is to say that it's a clear win for that reason. But I can't emphasize enough how much cap space is worth in today's NHL. And giving up 17.4M in cap space over two years is a big one for me. Are we getting the same value here that we are from paying a Suzuki, a Caufield, or a Slafkovsky? That's certainly a big question. I'd have a hard time believing Laine will be as complete a player, though I do think his potential to score goals in probably a bit higher than the others. But then past that, the next question is, what happens if he does play to his value? He's signed for two years, and we're not likely to be a Cup challenger in those two years. So what happens after that? If he has a career resurgence, are we going to be willing to pay him 9-10M a year on a longterm deal thereafter, or are we letting him walk as a UFA or trading him at that point? If he plays average hockey, then maybe we can re-sign him for cheaper, but then how much does that help us to sign a 20-goal scorer? Now add in the injury history and the mental health issues and there are a decent number of risks here. Ultimately, I think there is big upside potential here, which is the exciting part. I think this trade probably results in our PP being better and in our team moving up the standings by a few points. But the big picture is that I'm not sure how much that helps us. The goal is not necessarily to be 4-5 points better this year and next and then to make a big payout in two years or lose him when we want to be hitting our contention years. So I like the fit for the player: big guy with offensive skill who could have a resurgence playing for a player's coach in a hockey city. I'm less sold on the plan surrounding where this goes. I would have liked the trade better if Laine were signed to 4-5 years at 6M or if we had sent Anderson back the other way. I get that it's hard not to be excited about adding scoring punch, but I think we should have gotten more back for the amount of cap we took on. IMO that's a little under valuation for Harris to fetch a mid-2nd rounder with no roster player in return, so I will differ from both you on that as a standalone. Again we as fans have a tendency to over value our own. There aren't many comparables for a young RFA defensemen at a good contract value as they are not often traded. Arizona got Sean Durzi for a 2nd round pick from LA and he was far better than Harris. Hronek a top 4 d-man was acquired by the Canucks for a 1st and 2nd but he's an exception. Rasmus Sundin fetched a first for Toronto when they traded him to Washington, and IMO he had as much upside as Harris at that same time. Kovacevic wasn't RFA but he got a 4th round pick , but has a low contract value. If Laine as you suggest was just a contract dump for a team with cap space, then why wouldn't Columbus just offer him up for waivers like the Rangers did with Barclay Goodrow? I would think San Jose, Anaheim, Calgary, Utah might have bit. I do concur on the risks - maybe Laine turns into another Galchenyuk re; mental / substance / injury. If he doesn't make it here, then he's European bound. Buyout in 2025-6 after a 1 year experiment and dismal failure - $2.4Mcap hit for 2 years in our compete window - mice nuts. A GM has to take risks, and I like the upside call. Don't want to just runback a very similar lineup. I also like the cultural rub to the other players of "look we took care of a player vs treating him as a business commodity, and found a place for Harris to play", clearing a log jam at LHD and the associated conflicts. Hockey can be a cruel business of just trading players - HuGo seem to have the right attitude on this, and I choose to believe they did a fair bit of due diligence on Laine consistent with their stated mantra of "We want players who want to be here" If Laine performs and works hard, the fan base will love him. I am not worried about where he will be in 2 years. We have a great emerging core already and other players on the upswing. He can likely be replaced by another UFA at the end of Laine's contract.
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Post by HTL on Aug 20, 2024 1:42:21 GMT
Two years of Laine sounds like a temporary roster spot for Demidov to inherit. If that kid is for real we should pretty much know where we stand with him 2 years from now.
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regis
Le Gros Bill
Posts: 1,095
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Post by regis on Aug 20, 2024 1:44:27 GMT
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Post by kinot3 on Aug 20, 2024 5:12:28 GMT
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Post by ChiLla on Aug 20, 2024 8:31:27 GMT
I like this a lot, we were in desperate need of an upgrade for our top 6 and I'd rather take my chances with Laine than paying through the nose to get a guy like Zegras or Mercer. The risk is manageable and the potential is huge, the 2nd being an added bonus. As solid as Harris has been for us, we have plenty of options at his position and I don't think he's been in our long-term plans. And it's also nice to see that Hughes doesn't seem to be overly attached to guys he has some personal history with.
In theory, we just traded Cap space and Jordan Harris for a potentially elite goalscorer and a high-ish 2nd rounder. If Laine doesn't turn it around, we made room for our our LHD prospects and still got that 2nd rounder (which was probably the max return in an isolated trade for Harris anyway). If he does though, this could be v2.0 of the Kovalev trade for us.
Health does remain a concern with this team, but Monahan worked out nicely at least so there's hope.
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Post by jenniferrocket on Aug 20, 2024 12:25:52 GMT
I wonder how Hughes might approach extending him after season number one. If Laine goes out and scores 30 goals and 65+ points, do you start extension talks next summer?
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Post by HTL on Aug 20, 2024 12:55:04 GMT
I admit to not being too keen on aquiring Laine mainly because of the suspected cost. I'm good with the deal as it turned out because it only cost us Cap space. Whether it was the best use of that space remains to be seen. My biggest concern once again is aquiring players with history of injuries. Let's all hope that he and Dach have turned the corner and have a great year.
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Post by maasart on Aug 20, 2024 15:59:16 GMT
I admit to not being too keen on aquiring Laine mainly because of the suspected cost. I'm good with the deal as it turned out because it only cost us Cap space. Whether it was the best use of that space remains to be seen. My biggest concern once again is aquiring players with history of injuries. Let's all hope that he and Dach have turned the corner and have a great year. Agree with this. I actually think he'll thrive here and i always thought he would but he's already our highest paid player now & in 2 year when his contract is up, will he take less? if we gave up a 1st or high end prospect(s) would that sting to lose him? But in this case he gives us 2 years while Demidov serves out his KHL contract & has 1 year to adjust. Its a nearly perfect trade from our situational stand point. Huge potential upside very very minimal risk (if any?) If Laine likes it here, does well and wants to stay for a reasonable price, great. if he doesnt, we trade him at TDL or let him walk. The cost was nearly negligible considering we got a 2nd as well and only gave up Harris (whom i love but was clearly behind about 4-5 guys on our LHD depth chart)
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Post by archey on Aug 20, 2024 16:19:21 GMT
He scores from 40 ft more than Anderson. That's a case rester right there.
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Post by selteeck on Aug 20, 2024 18:57:37 GMT
great trade from Hughes
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Post by kinot3 on Aug 20, 2024 19:03:27 GMT
Will wear #92.
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Post by BigTed3 on Aug 20, 2024 21:13:37 GMT
^^ I'll come back to the same question I asked before: where does this trade get us in two years. I could understand a team with cap space adding him for free if they were a competitive team. In fact, I think Laine has reasonably good odds of performing well and being at least a 25-goal scorer here. But what does that do for us? Again, let's say this move just moved us from being an 80-point 23rd best overall team to an 85-point 20th-overall team. Ok. Now what? I'm not in the least disputing the potential Laine has on the ice, and I'm happy to have him as a player. Scott Gomez actually played really well for us when he first got here, but he wasn't worth the 7M+ price tag. So I come back to the fact that cap space matters, and I come back to the fact that the years that matter for the Habs the most are the ones where we're competitive for a Cup. So the players I want to see brought in are ones that we'll be able to keep around and have as part of the core for that Cup run. Is that 2024-25? Nope. Is it 2025-26? Unlikely. So what happens in the summer of 2026? I've said this, but there are two possible outcomes to this deal. Either Laine is average or has health issues and doesn't live up to things, the way we ran into issues with the likes of Semin, Gurianov, etc. And so then you have a dead asset and he probably walks in two years for nothing. We don't lose a ton this way, but we did let Columbus off the hook for 17.4M in cap space and we did lose the opportunity to use that cap space elsewhere. What if a team offered you a 1st rounder to take another guy like Monahan off their hands for 5-6M and one season? That's a better use of cap space.
The other possibility is that Laine has a resurgence. And that's best-case scenario for us in terms of how this trade plays out. That's what we want. But then what happens next? Sean Monahan had a resurgence here, got a trade to a contender, but then opted to sign elsewhere despite the fact we reportedly explored bringing him back. We decided we didn't want to pay him and/or he decided he wanted to explore another opportunity. Radulov had a resurgence here and then walked for money, despite claiming he loved it here. Kovalchuk had a mini-resurgence here and never came back. Players want to take care of the bottom line and provide for themselves and their families while they can. So it's not a guarantee that even if Laine loves it here that he'd stay, muchless take a hometown discount to play here. So if everything "works out" for us, we're still left with the decision as to whether we want to pay out in two years. If Laine scores 40 goals, he's going to command 9-10M or more on the open market, and someone will pay him. Someone's going to give him a NMC or a strong NTC. Are we prepared to do those things and sign Laine from age 28 through age 34, 35, or 36?
We came out of this trade with a strong asset, which is why it's an interesting trade to me. But the fit here in terms of the time-span of the contract not matching up with our window is odd. I'm curious to see where Hughes goes with this in terms of lomngterm plan. Is this a Monahan type move where Plan A is to trade him in a year or two? Is this with the intent of Laine being part of the core and using up a lot of cap on him? Is this just a gamble because we had the cap space to do it this year? I still don't understand the vision here. And that's not to say there is none, it's just not clear to me.
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Post by archey on Aug 20, 2024 21:26:09 GMT
^^ I'll come back to the same question I asked before: where does this trade get us in two years. I could understand a team with cap space adding him for free if they were a competitive team. In fact, I think Laine has reasonably good odds of performing well and being at least a 25-goal scorer here. But what does that do for us? Again, let's say this move just moved us from being an 80-point 23rd best overall team to an 85-point 20th-overall team. Ok. Now what? I'm not in the least disputing the potential Laine has on the ice, and I'm happy to have him as a player. Scott Gomez actually played really well for us when he first got here, but he wasn't worth the 7M+ price tag. So I come back to the fact that cap space matters, and I come back to the fact that the years that matter for the Habs the most are the ones where we're competitive for a Cup. So the players I want to see brought in are ones that we'll be able to keep around and have as part of the core for that Cup run. Is that 2024-25? Nope. Is it 2025-26? Unlikely. So what happens in the summer of 2026? I've said this, but there are two possible outcomes to this deal. Either Laine is average or has health issues and doesn't live up to things, the way we ran into issues with the likes of Semin, Gurianov, etc. And so then you have a dead asset and he probably walks in two years for nothing. We don't lose a ton this way, but we did let Columbus off the hook for 17.4M in cap space and we did lose the opportunity to use that cap space elsewhere. What if a team offered you a 1st rounder to take another guy like Monahan off their hands for 5-6M and one season? That's a better use of cap space. The other possibility is that Laine has a resurgence. And that's best-case scenario for us in terms of how this trade plays out. That's what we want. But then what happens next? Sean Monahan had a resurgence here, got a trade to a contender, but then opted to sign elsewhere despite the fact we reportedly explored bringing him back. We decided we didn't want to pay him and/or he decided he wanted to explore another opportunity. Radulov had a resurgence here and then walked for money, despite claiming he loved it here. Kovalchuk had a mini-resurgence here and never came back. Players want to take care of the bottom line and provide for themselves and their families while they can. So it's not a guarantee that even if Laine loves it here that he'd stay, muchless take a hometown discount to play here. So if everything "works out" for us, we're still left with the decision as to whether we want to pay out in two years. If Laine scores 40 goals, he's going to command 9-10M or more on the open market, and someone will pay him. Someone's going to give him a NMC or a strong NTC. Are we prepared to do those things and sign Laine from age 28 through age 34, 35, or 36? We came out of this trade with a strong asset, which is why it's an interesting trade to me. But the fit here in terms of the time-span of the contract not matching up with our window is odd. I'm curious to see where Hughes goes with this in terms of lomngterm plan. Is this a Monahan type move where Plan A is to trade him in a year or two? Is this with the intent of Laine being part of the core and using up a lot of cap on him? Is this just a gamble because we had the cap space to do it this year? I still don't understand the vision here. And that's not to say there is none, it's just not clear to me. I think the point is is that management sees him as much more capable to play in more locations than the team at present which will give MSL a better idea of what to do. If not--well then you are 100% right.
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Post by maasart on Aug 21, 2024 0:01:08 GMT
^^ I'll come back to the same question I asked before: where does this trade get us in two years. I could understand a team with cap space adding him for free if they were a competitive team. In fact, I think Laine has reasonably good odds of performing well and being at least a 25-goal scorer here. But what does that do for us? Again, let's say this move just moved us from being an 80-point 23rd best overall team to an 85-point 20th-overall team. Ok. Now what? I'm not in the least disputing the potential Laine has on the ice, and I'm happy to have him as a player. Scott Gomez actually played really well for us when he first got here, but he wasn't worth the 7M+ price tag. So I come back to the fact that cap space matters, and I come back to the fact that the years that matter for the Habs the most are the ones where we're competitive for a Cup. So the players I want to see brought in are ones that we'll be able to keep around and have as part of the core for that Cup run. Is that 2024-25? Nope. Is it 2025-26? Unlikely. So what happens in the summer of 2026? I've said this, but there are two possible outcomes to this deal. Either Laine is average or has health issues and doesn't live up to things, the way we ran into issues with the likes of Semin, Gurianov, etc. And so then you have a dead asset and he probably walks in two years for nothing. We don't lose a ton this way, but we did let Columbus off the hook for 17.4M in cap space and we did lose the opportunity to use that cap space elsewhere. What if a team offered you a 1st rounder to take another guy like Monahan off their hands for 5-6M and one season? That's a better use of cap space. The other possibility is that Laine has a resurgence. And that's best-case scenario for us in terms of how this trade plays out. That's what we want. But then what happens next? Sean Monahan had a resurgence here, got a trade to a contender, but then opted to sign elsewhere despite the fact we reportedly explored bringing him back. We decided we didn't want to pay him and/or he decided he wanted to explore another opportunity. Radulov had a resurgence here and then walked for money, despite claiming he loved it here. Kovalchuk had a mini-resurgence here and never came back. Players want to take care of the bottom line and provide for themselves and their families while they can. So it's not a guarantee that even if Laine loves it here that he'd stay, muchless take a hometown discount to play here. So if everything "works out" for us, we're still left with the decision as to whether we want to pay out in two years. If Laine scores 40 goals, he's going to command 9-10M or more on the open market, and someone will pay him. Someone's going to give him a NMC or a strong NTC. Are we prepared to do those things and sign Laine from age 28 through age 34, 35, or 36? We came out of this trade with a strong asset, which is why it's an interesting trade to me. But the fit here in terms of the time-span of the contract not matching up with our window is odd. I'm curious to see where Hughes goes with this in terms of lomngterm plan. Is this a Monahan type move where Plan A is to trade him in a year or two? Is this with the intent of Laine being part of the core and using up a lot of cap on him? Is this just a gamble because we had the cap space to do it this year? I still don't understand the vision here. And that's not to say there is none, it's just not clear to me. Unlikely monahan though, Laine is a few years younger and we are a few years further along. I think Hughes likely sees it in one of two scenarios: 1) he's a short term band-aid solution to give us a chance to make the playoffs until Demidov comes over or 2) he bounces back & we resign him to a 5-6 year deal just as we enter our window to compete. The cost was fair so I suspect Hughes is willing to roll the dice & see what happens.
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Post by claremont on Aug 21, 2024 2:32:56 GMT
^^ I'll come back to the same question I asked before: where does this trade get us in two years. I could understand a team with cap space adding him for free if they were a competitive team. In fact, I think Laine has reasonably good odds of performing well and being at least a 25-goal scorer here. But what does that do for us? Again, let's say this move just moved us from being an 80-point 23rd best overall team to an 85-point 20th-overall team. Ok. Now what? I'm not in the least disputing the potential Laine has on the ice, and I'm happy to have him as a player. Scott Gomez actually played really well for us when he first got here, but he wasn't worth the 7M+ price tag. So I come back to the fact that cap space matters, and I come back to the fact that the years that matter for the Habs the most are the ones where we're competitive for a Cup. So the players I want to see brought in are ones that we'll be able to keep around and have as part of the core for that Cup run. Is that 2024-25? Nope. Is it 2025-26? Unlikely. So what happens in the summer of 2026? I've said this, but there are two possible outcomes to this deal. Either Laine is average or has health issues and doesn't live up to things, the way we ran into issues with the likes of Semin, Gurianov, etc. And so then you have a dead asset and he probably walks in two years for nothing. We don't lose a ton this way, but we did let Columbus off the hook for 17.4M in cap space and we did lose the opportunity to use that cap space elsewhere. What if a team offered you a 1st rounder to take another guy like Monahan off their hands for 5-6M and one season? That's a better use of cap space. The other possibility is that Laine has a resurgence. And that's best-case scenario for us in terms of how this trade plays out. That's what we want. But then what happens next? Sean Monahan had a resurgence here, got a trade to a contender, but then opted to sign elsewhere despite the fact we reportedly explored bringing him back. We decided we didn't want to pay him and/or he decided he wanted to explore another opportunity. Radulov had a resurgence here and then walked for money, despite claiming he loved it here. Kovalchuk had a mini-resurgence here and never came back. Players want to take care of the bottom line and provide for themselves and their families while they can. So it's not a guarantee that even if Laine loves it here that he'd stay, muchless take a hometown discount to play here. So if everything "works out" for us, we're still left with the decision as to whether we want to pay out in two years. If Laine scores 40 goals, he's going to command 9-10M or more on the open market, and someone will pay him. Someone's going to give him a NMC or a strong NTC. Are we prepared to do those things and sign Laine from age 28 through age 34, 35, or 36? We came out of this trade with a strong asset, which is why it's an interesting trade to me. But the fit here in terms of the time-span of the contract not matching up with our window is odd. I'm curious to see where Hughes goes with this in terms of lomngterm plan. Is this a Monahan type move where Plan A is to trade him in a year or two? Is this with the intent of Laine being part of the core and using up a lot of cap on him? Is this just a gamble because we had the cap space to do it this year? I still don't understand the vision here. And that's not to say there is none, it's just not clear to me. Why does every significant contract have to match up with the so called long term compete window? A team's core evolves, and if the player demonstrates sufficient competency and fits with the culture of the team, then match that compete window. Mgmt. clearly feels Suzuki, Caufield, Slaf, Guhle have done that, and Laine is on trial - could you not ask the same questions on Dach, Newhook, Matheson, and where are we going with Montembault? If you want to see players brought in that will help us for a future Cup run beyond our draft and develop prospects - then identify alternatives Askarov?, McGroarty?, Mercer? Trade for RFA's or similar prospects and immediately lock them up on limited bodies of work for 3 years like Newhook and Dach? Marner, Draitsatl, which future free agents? Where was HuGo going to use the 2025 cap space he had? There weren't any UFA's that either wanted to sign here (Marchessault, Stamkos, Lindholm, Montour etc.) that really would fit your window. I'm at a loss as to why you have to question the contract vision and not just enjoy the ride, and potential upside / leadership contributions to the team. If Laine fails, like I have said before, then the buyout cap hit in 2026 and 2027 is $2.4M - I see many other contenders with dead cap $ more than that, so it's hardly a downside hinderance. I for one, don't need the answers on where Laine will be at the end of his 2 year contract. I am going to enjoy watching the team evolve and let the results dictate the future. If Laine walks then just like Philip Danault vs. Brendan Gallagher, one hopes we make the right decision (have enough replacement depth - Demidov etc.), and you can't keep everyone under the cap system. So far for me HuGo has stayed pretty true to their vision - they want players that want to be here. I can live with that cultural fit vs. aligning contracts to the compete window.
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regis
Le Gros Bill
Posts: 1,095
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Post by regis on Aug 21, 2024 2:46:24 GMT
That β window β keeps extending out every year . If we dont win with the young guys we have now that are considered our core guys , weβll do like every other team in the league , just go out and get some other guys Reset , rebuild what3ver you wanna call it
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Post by ChiLla on Aug 21, 2024 5:34:47 GMT
Laine is 26, it's not like we're adding guys like Semin or Briere when they're way past their prime. Yes, it's a gamble, similar to what Hughes did with Monahan, but the risk is rather manageable here in my eyes. The price to pay is the Cap hit and maybe I'm being to simplistic here but the scenario seems pretty simple. Either Laine rebounds, which is a great problem to have because suddenly we added a 30-40 goal scorer way below market value and could still trade or re-sign him when the time comes. Or he doesn't rebound and we simply let him walk (or trade him for a bag of pucks at the deadline in a few years).
After 3 years in the bottom five, I think it's time Hughes/Gorton improved the team and that's what they're trying to do here without breaking the bank. I'm definitely okay with the move and it'll certainly gives us some more interesting hockey to watch in 2024/2025 if our core guys can finally stay healthy.
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Post by habulator on Aug 21, 2024 12:16:30 GMT
Laine is 26, it's not like we're adding guys like Semin or Briere when they're way past their prime. Yes, it's a gamble, similar to what Hughes did with Monahan, but the risk is rather manageable here in my eyes. The price to pay is the Cap hit and maybe I'm being to simplistic here but the scenario seems pretty simple. Either Laine rebounds, which is a great problem to have because suddenly we added a 30-40 goal scorer way below market value and could still trade or re-sign him when the time comes. Or he doesn't rebound and we simply let him walk (or trade him for a bag of pucks at the deadline in a few years). After 3 years in the bottom five, I think it's time Hughes/Gorton improved the team and that's what they're trying to do here without breaking the bank. I'm definitely okay with the move and it'll certainly gives us some more interesting hockey to watch in 2024/2025 if our core guys can finally stay healthy. I agree with this - there is the "window" that we are shooting for - but there is also the now. We need some people who can put bums back into the seats at Bell Center. Over the last few seasons there have been lots of empty ones, something you never saw pre-covid. With PP's so important I'm a little excited to see another shooting option.
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Post by maasart on Aug 21, 2024 16:51:20 GMT
Laine is 26, it's not like we're adding guys like Semin or Briere when they're way past their prime. Yes, it's a gamble, similar to what Hughes did with Monahan, but the risk is rather manageable here in my eyes. The price to pay is the Cap hit and maybe I'm being to simplistic here but the scenario seems pretty simple. Either Laine rebounds, which is a great problem to have because suddenly we added a 30-40 goal scorer way below market value and could still trade or re-sign him when the time comes. Or he doesn't rebound and we simply let him walk (or trade him for a bag of pucks at the deadline in a few years). After 3 years in the bottom five, I think it's time Hughes/Gorton improved the team and that's what they're trying to do here without breaking the bank. I'm definitely okay with the move and it'll certainly gives us some more interesting hockey to watch in 2024/2025 if our core guys can finally stay healthy. I agree with this - there is the "window" that we are shooting for - but there is also the now. We need some people who can put bums back into the seats at Bell Center. Over the last few seasons there have been lots of empty ones, something you never saw pre-covid. With PP's so important I'm a little excited to see another shooting option. Definitely. The 2 other things are: 1) you cant have everybody on your roster hitting their prime at once because you wont be able to afford them all unless they are all giving you sweetheart deals. 2) if you constantly try to add picks, prospects and very young talent, you end up like Barfalo. We need to start winning a little more regularly. We are lucky that a few of our core players went to the cup finals ( Suzuki, Caufield) but we need some of those other guys who have only seen losses so far in their NHL careers to start tasting wins. If Laine rebounds, Dach stays healthy and our top line stays the same or gets better, this team will be a bubble team, im almost sure about that.
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